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Subject:what about faramir, eh?
Time:02:44 pm
Current Mood:enthralledenthralled
i dunno, i'm just trying to think if a topic, and this one seams like a good one.
my dad and i always argue about the books versus the movies. my dad is a complete tolkien purist, and, altohuh he likes the detail and scenery of the films, he hates the writers for what they changed. right now, the small issue of faramir is our main topic.
he says that tolkiens version was better. faramir resisted the ring completely because he was so unlike boromir. he says it destroys a lot of his character, having him temporarily embrace the power of the ring.
well, i am not the purist of the family. i love the books, but i feel that the movies give them a certain feeling that was sometimes lacking. another thing i loved was the way they did boromir. i found it hard to believe in the books that he could completely resist the ring. i couldn't believe it when he said he would toss the ring aside if he found it. only tom bombadil could do that. sam could also, to an extent, because of his simplicity. but i digress.
the point is, i don't think faramir would be able to resist the ring just like that. ::snaps fingers::. i'm in favor of the movie version in that sense. what do you think?

::scrolls up:: wow, i'm boring...-__-;;;

-the
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janelemon
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Time:2004-03-04 07:59 pm (UTC)
I'm kind of on the fence on this one. I used to consider myself a Tolkien purist, but I'm realizing, after seeing all the movies multiple times, that they do in fact give a bit more depth to some of the characters. Tolkien's stories were not character driven, and few of the characters are fully developed throughout the books.

I like how the movies treated Faramir and the Faramir/Denethor situation.
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necromancer723
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Time:2004-03-04 08:09 pm (UTC)
yeah, when denethor tells faramir he wished he had died instead of boromir, and faramir just bows and says "since you are robbed of boromir, i will do what i can in his stead. if i should return...think better of me, father" (again, i dont know if i got that exactly right, but ye get the idea) i cried so much. i cried many times in that movie, but that was the SADDEST part, i think. i felt incredible sorrow for faramir, much more than i did in the books.

-the
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janelemon
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Time:2004-03-04 08:11 pm (UTC)
That entire scene, complete with the Steward of Gondor song sequence and Faramir riding out to his supposed death, is one of the best scenes in all three movies.

Yeah, I cried, too. Last time I saw RotK, I cried continuously for most of the movie.
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necromancer723
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Time:2004-03-04 08:26 pm (UTC)
yes, i love pippins song. and the flowers being thrown under the horses eet? fantastic.
i only cry at specific points. when denethor is mean to faramir, when theoden dies, and at the end. i think i cried at different points also, but i'm not sure.
i get shivers down the spine from the horns of the rohirrim. i wish they were on the soundtrack. but when everyone us yelling "day", and eowyn holds her sword in the air, and yells "day"...and then the view of all the rohhirim, and the horns blowing...ack, i love it so much.

-the
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necromancer723
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Time:2004-03-04 08:28 pm (UTC)
sigh. pippin's*. feet*. rohirrim*. is* yelling day.

><;;;

-the
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janelemon
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Time:2004-03-04 08:45 pm (UTC)
*shivers, too*

I think I need to go see RotK again this weekend, before it disappears for good from theaters. I need something to tide me over before the DVD is released.
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necromancer723
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Time:2004-03-04 08:53 pm (UTC)
i am hoping it'll stay in theatres until and through the weekend after this. 7 is a good number.

-the
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oh_kaity
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Time:2004-03-04 10:49 pm (UTC)
This debate has been hot since The Two Towers came out. Most purists have been outraged at the portrayal of Faramir.

I, for one, am pleased with the change. Tolkien seems to have made several errors in characterization in his book, because he's not a novelist, but a historian and linguist first and foremost. It simply isn't logical for Faramir to resist the Ring. Throughout the book, it was stated than Men are the weakest race, and the race of Men coming into their own despite their flaws is one of the main themes of LOTR. If Denethor went mad, and Boromir also went mad (regardless of the reasons for it), then it is likely to follow that Faramir has that streak of weakness in him as well, despite his inner nobility.

If Aragorn is the Man who can most easily resist the Ring, then it gives him more of a claim to rule Gondor. It tempts Aragorn (briefly). It tempts Gandalf (briefly). It even tempts Samwise (briefly) - and the fact that all three can resist the power and overcome it makes them stronger, not weaker. We should react the same way to Faramir, shouldn't we? It is harder to be tempted and then to resist than to never feel its power at all, and for that his film interpretation should be praised, not condemned for being inaccurate.

Also - in terms of his character being destroyed - I forgot Faramir even existed in the book. He was that boring for me. When I saw him in the film I thought he was creepy (until I saw the EE of TTT, which made me like him quite a bit) but I still remembered him, and I wanted to see if Faramir would succumb to the same evil that took his brother, or if he would be stronger than that and survive. In addition, the way the family relationship was portrayed made it necessary to change Faramir's character. The hatred of Denethor for Faramir was made so much stronger, and Faramir's desire to please his father was strengthened as well - there has to be a desperate need to please Denethor underlying Faramir's motivation for wanting that Ring. If Faramir wants so badly for Denethor to love him, and the way to get Denethor to love him is to succeed where his brother failed, then that is probably more important to him than the power the Ring possesses (and in that sense the power of the Ring takes on a more Freudian turn, which made up another discussion a long time ago).

Anyway, that's my ramble, completely lacking in organization.
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necromancer723
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Time:2004-03-04 11:12 pm (UTC)
::applause:: my thoughts exactly. tolkien made a great world, with beautiful languages and wonderful detail. he did not make emotional characters. my example of this is when gandalf falls, and everyone goes out of moria. and in the book, aragorn says "alas, did i not warn you", or something like that. then it says they cry. then they move on. it was written very matter-of-factly, when it could have been very emotional.
eek, i went a bit off topic...sry.

-the
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aprilstarchild
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Time:2004-03-04 11:20 pm (UTC)
Put on the list of people who think Tolkien couldn't characterize for a hill o'beans. Quite ironic when you realize that 1. Most modern fantasy draws in large amounts from Tolkien, and yet 2. Fantasy has some of the best characterization in genre fiction. ElfQuest? Mists of Avalon? HELLO!

Yeah, I totally agree that the movie did Faramir much better. I think I sympathized more with him than almost any other character in the damn series. He's the one that made me want to cry, in ROTK. He's just so heartbroken.

I hope to Gods and All That Is Holy that the EE for ROTK has more Faramir and Eowyn scenes. Faramir, even in the books, is a fantastic match for Eowyn, even if I don't like how it's portrayed.

But then, I just joined an LJ community called tinsaddles that's about Eowyn/Merry fic. So mebbe youse shouldn't be listenin' to me.
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necromancer723
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Time:2004-03-04 11:46 pm (UTC)
yeah, i was dissapointed by the lack of the "houses of healing". they did show eowyn standing with faramir in the corronation scene, but it wasn't enough. i don't think they tied up the loose ends with faramir as well as they could have.

-the
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oh_kaity
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Time:2004-03-05 03:14 am (UTC)
The EE will have things with Eowyn and Faramir. It has to. Eowyn's unrequited love for Aragorn has to be resolved. It's good filmmaking - and PJ is a good filmmaker. I'm sure it will be in there, and it will be done in a much better manner than it was in the book, even if it is brief. :) I'm certain of it. It has to be.

(Har... Eowyn/Merry. I love it.)
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necromancer723
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Time:2004-03-05 03:35 am (UTC)
i hope so.
yeah, in the book it was a bit weak, faramir and eowyn. that's why i was looking forward to the houses of healing in the movies so much...*sigh*...
PJ is definately a good film maker. he won't let us down.
yeah, tis understandable. rotk was already 3 hours 20 minutes withouth the houses of healing and the scouring. i guess i expected a bit much...^^;;;

-the
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oh_kaity
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Time:2004-03-05 04:08 am (UTC)
The Scouring will not be in the film, obviously (and for good reasons), but have hope for the Houses of Healing. The EE of ROTK is rumored to be about five hours long, which means we may just get the Choices of Master Samwise as well, which was what I was looking forward to. There's just no way the theatrical release could have all of that, and that's why I'm so glad the EEs are available. PJ made a brilliant move when he decided to do it. Truly revolutionary, and it seems like that's what DVDs are made for.
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necromancer723
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Time:2004-03-05 04:46 am (UTC)
it'll also have the mouth of sauron. it was odd, because he was in the video game version of the film...but not in the film itself. odd.

-the
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oh_kaity
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Time:2004-03-05 05:08 am (UTC)
I'm interested in seeing the Nose and Ear of Sauron.
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oh_kaity
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Time:2004-03-05 03:19 am (UTC)
Only a bit off topic, and that's fine. :) It's still relevant.

Tolkien wasn't concerned about writing a novel, and so he didn't bother to write intense characterization. After anyone dies, they mourn, and move on, and it doesn't affect them later on unless it's a plot point. The same goes for their reactions to anything. Peter Jackson really did an excellent job of taking Tolkien's story and giving it life and depth.

And that's why this forum is for the book and the films. :) Because, really ... no matter how new the films are compared to the book, I think they complete each other. You can watch the films and walk away happy, but you won't be truly enriched with the history until you read the book. You can read the book and walk away happy, but you don't get the satisfaction of having real characters until you've seen the films. (And that's what we call KD getting off topic.)
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pirateship
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Time:2004-03-04 11:43 pm (UTC)
Oh what a good topic! Faramir is one of my very favorite characters, and my friend and I have talked about this a lot of times.

Because he was one of my favorite characters, it did make me sad that he seemed so tempted in TTT. However, I do agree with K.D. in the post above me that it just doesn't seem logical for him to have no desire for the Ring.

But I really do enjoy the movie version - not to mention the fact that if Faramir didn't give Frodo and Sam a hard time, nothing would have happened to them in TTT because there was no Shelob. I also like the movie because I think it really connects Faramir and Boromir more smoothly than the book does, and it is easy to see that they were brothers.

One of my favorite parts of RotK is when Faramir goes to see his Denethor. After that part, I think, Tolkien purists shouldn't really have anything to complain about, other than 'it just wasn't like the book.' It was done so, so well and it was obvious why Faramir wanted the Ring so badly - so he could please his father.
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necromancer723
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Time:2004-03-04 11:50 pm (UTC)
yeah, in the extended edition of TTT, i really loved the relationship between boromir and faramir. you know, denethor loves boromir, boromir loves denethor and faramir, and faramir loves denethor and boromir. but denethor hates faramir, and it's so sad. and ye can tell that boromir hates denethor for it in some ways. there's just a real sense of a close lil brother big brother relationship, ye know?
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necromancer723
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Time:2004-03-04 11:58 pm (UTC)
another thing i loved was the way they did faramir.* >< stupid mistake. pay me no mind...

-the
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[icon] what about faramir, eh? - Brandyhall: A Lord of the Rings Forum
View:Recent Entries.
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View:LordoftheRings.net. TheOneRing.net. The Council of Elrond. A Tolkien Dictionary. The Tengwar of Feanor.